Host: Welcome to the Lifelong Wellness podcast, where we talk to wellness professionals from around the world to gain their insights into healthier living. I’m your host, Wes Malik. When it comes to health and well-being, there is one overwhelming issue that has affected the entire world over the last six months, and that is the coronavirus, COVID-19, and the pandemic. The subject of COVID-19 has come up from time to time in our various podcasts because it's an ongoing issue, but we haven't focused on it for an entire episode. And now that many countries around the world, including the US and Canada, are opening up after better results in tackling the issue of the pandemic and COVID-19, there's a whole new set of challenges regarding reopening that we need to talk about. That's why our guest today is Jennifer Weaver-Breitenbecher, who is a licensed psychotherapist and owner of a private practice in Rhode Island. She specializes in overall wellness and self-care. In addition to seeing individual patients in the practice, she also works with companies across the country to evaluate and assess wellness within the work environment. Jennifer, welcome to the Lifelong Wellness podcast. How are you doing today?
Jennifer: I’m doing very well. How are you?
Host: Very good. Before we talk about your expertise, I want to set the stage regarding the pandemic and what people are experiencing through COVID-19. The world has been facing this virus for about six months as of taping this podcast and throughout those six months, the world has experienced different stages. There are parts of the world that are now coronavirus-free. There are parts of the world, like Latin America and South America, which are experiencing the full brunt of the pandemic. And during this time, responses to the pandemic have ranged from extreme lockdowns, to semi-lockdowns, to words like ‘quarantining' and now, of course, a very popular buzzword is, you know, ‘social distancing'. There have also been buzzwords like self-isolating, and all of that has had an impact on our lives, on our families, and most importantly a lot of health professionals and doctors are talking about the toll it's taking on the mental well-being of human beings all over the world. So, setting the stage and what's been going on, what is normal during a pandemic, and what is this thing called ‘a new normal' in your opinion, post-pandemic, or after the pandemic?
Jennifer: Sure. I think we struggle with what normal during a pandemic looks like because a global pandemic of this magnitude, I think, is something that many of us haven’t experienced in our lifetime. So, this is something that is completely novel to most of us. So, I think normal varies from person-to-person. I think really, as a mental health specialist, my primary goal is that everyone just sort of emerges from this well, and I think whatever that means for everyone varies from person-to-person. And I think when we talk about “new normal”, there’s new normal that everyone's talking about, I'd like to hope it's our temporary normal because we are seeing increased levels of isolation, we’re seeing increased levels of alcohol consumption, we’re seeing increased levels of domestic violence calls to police officers. So I think we’re seeing the effects that this so-called quarantine is having on people and their overall wellness.
Host: I like that you called it a ‘so-called quarantine', because I like to explain what quarantine is in different parts of the world. In Asia, in Europe, for example in Italy which was hit the hardest, a quarantine meant that you couldn’t leave your building or your home and walk on the street. We in the Americas have been very fortunate where we’ve been quarantined, but we’ve been able to go to the pharmacy, we’ve been able to go to the grocery store and buy up all of the toilet paper and sanitizer. (laughing) But we, our liberties, haven't been affected as much but we have been ordered to stay home in many states, in many parts of the world wherever this podcast is going.
Host: Now, even those different levels of quarantine have psychologically impacted us. Even just the mention of some authority figure, saying, “Well, you can't do things normally anymore”. For example, “Okay, you can go to the grocery store but you can’t go to the movie theater”. “You can take a walk in the park but you can't use the swings or the slides”. This has had a very huge impact on people. A lot of people have been upset, been talking about it and this is the only reaction I get. I can only use this reaction from social media, that's where I get my information from. You as a professional, what have you seen in people when they experience this?
Jennifer: Listen, people, whether they like to agree to this or not, thrive off those structures and rules. So I think when the rules are varying from day-to-day and the rules vary in just one part as you mentioned like, “You can take a walk in the park but don’t you dare touch those swings”.
Jennifer: I think that’s very confusing to people. It’s this idea of, “Why can I touch my Amazon package and why can I touch the milk at the grocery store, but I can't touch a swing?”
Jennifer: And the truth behind that is because the information about the virus changes day-to-day. So the rules are going to vary and that freaks people out because now we don't have a structure to follow, we don't have rules that make us feel safe. Just like if you have a toddler at home, we know that rules allow a toddler to feel safe and feel consistency. We as adults need that as well. And I think something about this pandemic is we’ve sort of taken that from people. And, you know, there’s no malice to that we have no choice but to sort of take the structure of rules at this point because we don't have to implement them. And as a result, we are seeing an increase in all those anxieties because people are saying, “I wake up every day and I don't really know what today’s going to hold”. And you can say that for 2020 as a whole. 2020 has been a wild ride from a global perspective.
Host: Yes, yes.
Jennifer: So I think we’re seeing that all over the world from people, you know, sort of everywhere.
Host: Are some people more averse to changing rules in society and some people less averse to it?
Jennifer: Sure. I think some of us roll more easily with change and some of us don’t. And it's interesting because when the “quarantine” came into place and where I am in the United States we have a stay-at-home order. So it wasn’t really a quarantine, right? But we have a stay at home order and what I noticed from a lot of my patients was this anxiety about sort of being told to stay at home and they work through that. They learned how to create structure, they learned how to make themselves feel safe. And then when we started to go through the phases of reopening, and I think right now where I am we’re at the end of phase 2, when we started to go through those phases, those same patients started to have anxiety about the world reopening.
Jennifer: And I had to remind them. I said, “I had to remind you 100 days ago, you had anxiety about being told to stay home and now you’re having anxiety about being told that you can go to Target, that you can go candle shopping”. Again it doesn’t just have to be groceries. It’s this element of change. I don't really think it’s about what people are being told they can or cannot do, it’s changed. And then, you know, you got this entire population of people who just roll with change really well.
Jennifer: And they probably have adopted the best.
Host: Is it young people who roll with change better?
Jennifer: It is. Young people roll with change the best.
Jennifer: And we give Gen Z this really bad rep.
Host: We give them a lot of flack, so that’s true.
Jennifer: Actually Gen Z is doing incredibly well. Their worlds have changed very rapidly since the day they were born until now and they are highly adaptive as far as the generation is concerned. So young people tend to roll with this pretty well. They tend to say like, “Okay, so what’s next? How do we handle it? How do we move forward?” It tends to be us, millennials and older people who struggle with that a bit more.
Host: I see that in teenagers and children and I asked them, “How do you feel? What do you think? How does this affect you? Universities are closed, schools are closed” and they’re like, “Yeah, this is the best. This is great. I hope it never opens again”. You know, who wants to go to school? The only thing that I have seen children mention with my limited contact with the outside world is they miss their friends a little bit.
Host: Not too much but, you know, that being with them in the library or outside or hanging out at the mall or just hanging out. It doesn't matter where they kind of miss that. And they were deprived of that for about three months, which is a very long time. But in many places in America, even that has been loosened and now you can meet with 5, 10, 15, even groups of 50 now in parts of the country and around the world. But change is a great topic to talk about. And rather than the pandemic of the coronavirus, it's the change, which affects us the most. I have a question, but it’s going to come at the end of a very long story. (laughing)
Jennifer: Okay, go for it. Go for it.
Host: I work from home and now a lot of people are working from home. And I find it absolutely normal to work from home, from my basement or from my living room or go outside to meet a couple of clients once a week or something. Very, very normal for me. The only thing that changed in our household during this was the children started staying at home and I didn't have to walk them or drive them to school like I did every day. Still went to the grocery store, still went everywhere. I am quiet, we’re not a very large outgoing family. So we started saving, you know, we went out for dinner maybe once a week and that was about it. That was like a special treat for us. Maybe twice a month we stop doing that. Haven’t seen a movie in a long time, but we only watch big blockbuster movies. For example, Avengers or Spider-Man.
Host: We don’t watch every single movie that came out so maybe a trip to the theater once a month. My son does miss the pool. We used to go to the pool every day, the public pool. But other than that, financially, my home, my life, the food that I eat, the things that I wear didn't change much. But I know there's a lot of people like me out there, but it felt very different even though just a few things changed. So why does little change seem like such a huge drastic change in my life that will, and honestly it has mentally affected me with the things that are going on around me. What's the process with change there?
Jennifer: You know, I think one of the things we've learned a lot about people during this time is the difference between an extrovert and introvert. And it sounds like your family is potentially a bit more introverted, or at least yourself, and that’s a good thing. I think we used to give introverts sort of this bad name, right? Being shy doesn’t make you an introvert. An introvert is just someone who fills their cup when they have alone time or they have time in a very small group. And it sounds like your family is a bit introverted and I think at the beginning of this, introverts thought they were going to thrive and they probably did a bit longer than your average extrovert. But introverts also have a tendency to not often reach out. So those small changes were part of your structure. And even though it may have been just going to the pool or going to the movies once a month or going to dinner once every few weeks, those were still things that you relied on as far as social activities, outdoor activities, things that connected you to the outside world, you know, those were taken. Even though it seems small, it created a structure change for you. And a lot of times, you know not a lot of times, but our brains are wired to understand that change can often signal danger.
Jennifer: So when we talk about the animal part of our brain, we talk about how sometimes they are wired to notice the change. When anything is different, the animal part of our brain is like, “Hmm, that must be a danger”. So I think when we engaged in these structures and these patterns in our lives and then we change them, the animal part of our brains sort of spikes and, “Wait a minute. This feels dangerous” and that can create some anxiety. Even the logical part of our brain will at some point override that and say, “No. There is no threat to me not going to the movies. I'm actually not in danger by staying home”.
Host: Now, there's a lot of families, you know, there's a lot of family structure in the world but then there's a lot of individuals who live on their own. And the quarantine has definitely affected families differently and individuals way differently. Have you talked to people in those two different situations? What are the differences? What have you noticed between people or single or, you know, students or, you know, living downtown somewhere?
Jennifer: Right. And I think it depends on the type of person you are. It triggers a thought for me when you were talking earlier about teenagers.
Jennifer: Teenagers have grown up and I’m sure you know this, you mentioned having kids so I’m sure you know about your own kids. They have grown up in an era in which engaging with their peers from home after school is super normal.
Jennifer: Whether they are on their Xbox playing games with their friends or playing Fortnite, they are on FaceTime, they are on social media. They’re constantly connected to their peers.
Jennifer: So I often have parents bring teenagers into me and say, “Can you talk to him? I think he’s depressed he never leaves his room”. And when I talk to him, he says, “I’m not depressed. I’m talking to my friends all afternoon” and I’m like, “What a different generation of people”.
Jennifer: You know when I was a teenager, we only had one phone so you couldn’t tie it up because then my parents couldn’t receive any phone calls. So in order to interact with my friends, I actually had to leave the house. We don’t really have that anymore. Kids can stay home. So I think when we’re talking about people who are potentially single, we’re talking about two different types of people.
Jennifer: Are you someone who willingly reaches out and uses technology to engage with your loved ones or are you someone who struggles with that? And if you are already technologically savvy, what we see is those people are doing fairly well. They’re not feeling…You know there’s a difference between being alone and being lonely. So they’re technically alone but they’re not feeling lonely. And I think the people we’ve seen hit the hardest are the elderly because many of them are not technologically savvy. And my grandmother, for example, we did give her a Tablet so that she can connect with us via FaceTime, but we also have to call her every time and walk her through the process of how to turn the Tablet on.
Jennifer: So I think she’s only connecting to the Tablet to appease us. She’s certainly isn’t calling her friends on it.
Jennifer: So I think we’ve got two different types of people in it and that's the important piece. Are you driven and do you strive to connect with those you care about? Because that will create a huge difference in your life.
Host: So the experiences that every generation has throughout their lifetime actually helps them deal with the pandemic, during the pandemic and post-pandemic differently. And, you know, the follow-up to that is that how about social interaction like things that we kept, were normal before like dating, you know, going out?
Jennifer: Right. What’s funny about dating is I think, with online dating, we have sort of lost the art of dating. We are currently living in a generation where people find someone that they “like well enough”.
Jennifer: And all of a sudden they have become their significant other and they’ve taken their profile off all online dating sites and within six months they’re living together and that’s fine. I’m certainly not shaming people for living together after six months. What I’m saying is we’ve lost the art of dating. The point of dating is to get to know a bunch of different types of people until you find the type, the combination of qualities that work best for you, and we sort of lost that art. And the thing I love best about quarantine is quarantine dating because it forces people to get to know each other. You can't just text an address and meet up without getting to know each other. It's forcing people to actually invest some time and, you know, to some extent it will show you who's willing to invest that time. Listen, you’re home, you got nothing but time. If you can’t keep a quarantine date with me, I certainly cannot trust you to keep a real date with me.
Host: Right, exactly. So with all this change happening, some people deny change. A lot of people deny that this is actually happening. There's a lot of information, misinformation, news, the new terminology, ‘fake news' is out there. How are we processing this? Is this a way we deal with information by, you know, closing our eyes? The different reactions people have. Some people, you know, take things very seriously and some people will take it not so serious and some people will completely counter against and say, “You’re absolutely wrong. There's nothing wrong with the world and I'm to going to go out and have a party”.
Host: Why do we have these different reactions?
Jennifer: I think to some extent it’s denial. I think it’s a refusal to change. I think it’s stubbornness. It's interesting how many people after we have lost as many lives as we have continued to tell me that the virus isn’t real. And I think, you know, it's this idea of we can only control what we can control. I can't control necessarily if I have to wear a mask in public but I can control whether I leave and go out of the house.
Jennifer: So I think, you know, I currently live in a town where there is an executive order and we have to wear a mask everywhere we go.
Jennifer: And that’s out of my control. I can control whether I leave the house but being in denial doesn't change my reality. Being in denial doesn't change the executive order that exists around me. And I think people who are willing to accept that the world is changing will more easily deal with that change. People who are in denial of that and really digging their heels into the sand are not going to roll as easily with change and we’re going to see bigger mental health impacts on those individuals.
Host: Alright, during this pandemic, how do you coach people and counsel people and tell people…How do you tell them to deal with change and to deal with these control issues, how to deal with information, and how to deal with this anxiety. How, what suggestions do you give to them?
Jennifer: You know, I always tell people let’s talk about your controllable versus your uncontrollable. You always have a controllable in the situation. You always have an option. It may not be ideal, but it exists. So I think we’re always telling people, “Look at what you can control and stop trying to control all the things you can't”. I cannot control when this pandemic will be over. A lot of people are focusing on, “I just want it to be over. I just want life to go back to normal”. Well, for all we can tell, life not going to go back to the normal that you knew. It’s after we’ve experienced as a globe, our normal probably going to change. So sitting and wishing and hoping for that normal is probably not going to do you any good. But I think being able to say like, “Okay, what can I control?” I can control how I take care of myself when I go out to the grocery store. I can control if I have a game night virtually with my family every weekend so that I can connect with them. I can control if I set up a workspace for myself in my house so that I enjoy working from home.
Jennifer: There are different things we can control and that’s what people need to latch onto. We spend a lot of time latching onto things we have zero control over or people we have zero control over. When in reality we just need to focus on what our control design and that will make us actually feel in control because it's not a false sense of control.
Host: That is great advice. Focusing on the things that you can control versus what's not in your power. A lot of people have elevated stress and, you know, feelings of worry. And I think, you know, halfway into our podcast I think we should jump into it. There is an actual fear of death according to the latest statistics by WHO, which always changes. And the numbers that I’m quoting could change tomorrow or next week. On average around the world, 5.5% of people passed away due to COVID-19 if they get it. In the US is also 5.5%. In other places like the UK, Canada, Italy, and Spain, it's much higher between 7% to 9% and that makes me worried and it makes a lot of other people worried. Some people are not worried about it at all. Like for example my parents. My parents are just absolutely okay with everything. I don't know how they do it, but I am terrified.
Host: I'm very fearful of losing my life. I'm afraid of death very, very afraid of death. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who feel the same way. How do you talk about or how do you mend, I don't know if you're supposed to manage fear or not, but what would you do if you are fearful and afraid of death resulting from COVID-19?
Jennifer: Right and it’s interesting that you mentioned your parents and I’m not sure how old your parents are but what we've noticed is the older generation of adults right now, particularly those in the US who lived through the depression, have zero fear of COVID. They have been through worse. In their eyes, if COVID is going to be that thing that ends their life, it’s going to be the thing that ends their life. So we’re actually really struggling at least in the US with elderly people following the rules.
Jennifer: They are more susceptible to death and they are the ones we absolutely cannot get to follow the rules. So I think that's that but I think when we’re talking about younger generations it’s about what can you control. So, you’re right. While the death rate as a population seems low in some, you’re right, in some parts of the world it’s about 10% of people who contract the virus and that’s a terrifying percentage. And I think it's about again controlling what you can control. If you are not ready to reintroduce yourself to society, don't, because you’re right. The information from the World Health Organization changes every single day. So part of it is if you're telling me on Saturday it’s safe for me to do X, Y, and Z and I’m doing X, Y, and Z. And on Monday, you’re telling me actually that wasn’t a good idea. So I think part of it is until there’s some part of consistency in the information you have the right to not reengage. You get to choose that. And I think, you know, I've said to some people, if you get invited to a party of 20 people you have the right to say No. There shouldn’t be guilt attached to that. Someone else asking you to do something that makes you uncomfortable is where actually where the guilt should be. It shouldn’t be on you for saying No. We get to choose what we can control in our life because at the end of the day, can I really control if I contract COVID? Not entirely. Can I mitigate the risk factors? Absolutely. And I think we always tell people like, “We’ll cross that bridge when we get to it” because I do have a lot of patients who call me with concern about if they were to catch COVID it being fatal. And I say to them, “We’ll cross that bridge when we get to it. Right now all we can focus on is you taking control of your life so you mitigate your risk of actually contracting it”.
Host: And how about, you know, the global fear or people saying that it’s just, you know, mass hysteria and is just because there's so much news flying around and misinformation like, you know, sometimes they say ”Do this”, sometimes they say “Don't do that”, causing confusion. You know, how do people handle that in your experience?
Jennifer: You know, gather the information and make the decision that makes the most sense for yourself. And something right now that we dealing with, where I live is this idea of you don’t really have to wear a mask. People are claiming it doesn't really help. My thought is the information on masks changes every day in the United States. The CDC changes their suggestion about masks almost weekly, but as far as I'm concerned worst-case scenario, wearing a mask would have been an inconvenience for me if it doesn't do anything. And I think sometimes it's about to gather the information and do what makes the most sense to. Wearing a mask right now makes the most sense to me because if it can help protect another person, then that’s worth it to me. If we find that six months from now masks were useless, which for the record I don't think we’ll find that out, but if we do, so what? I had to wear a mask and it was hot and it ruined my makeup. But aside from that, it was just an inconvenience. So I think folk take the facts that you're being given and focus on the pieces that you feel the best adherent to.
Host: Jennifer, I like your message. That message has a lot of common sense and it's very, very valid and I hope everyone follows that. Now, most of the US is on track, Canada, you know, where our audience lives and most of our audience, but our worldwide audience as well. Most of the world, apart from South America is back on track to the opening where COVID-19 is, you know, reducing in many parts of the country and many parts of the world as well. New Zealand had great success. Hong Kong, Singapore had great success down to zero cases. They have the oddball case that comes in from an Asian country or European country but you know they been very successful. A lot of good news is coming up so things are opening up. We are, I've been hearing reports of, you know, beaches overflowing as soon as they open up. This is a very funny story I read yesterday. Last night, I don't know if you have a store called Winners or Home Sense, but in one particular area shelves were bare after they opened up for the first time yesterday. And everyone had just bought all the furniture and all the cushions and pillows and mirrors and everything in there that nothing left. (laughing) So this is odd behavior. Now I'm expecting that there will be more behavior, different types of behavior now that we’re opening up. And this week is kind of the week, I’m pretty sure in New York and Rhode Island, things are easing up as well. The East Coast is easing up. What can we expect and how do we manage opening up and reintroducing ourselves back to the world?
Jennifer: It’s funny because when you’re talking about the furniture flying off the shelves that sounds like indulgent behavior.
Jennifer: It sounds like people are trying to engage in some sort of self-care. Like I'm going to, you know, I’ve been staring at these walls inside my house for 100 days, I'm going to go buy new furniture or I’m going to buy new patio furniture so that I can sit outside and enjoy the summer.
Jennifer: It sounds like an indulgent behavior and as long as you’re financially able to do so, I fully support that. I think it's okay to go sort of spend some money, you know, within your means on something that makes you feel good. You know, obviously, if that becomes a pattern of behavior it’s problematic but I think if we are seeing that, you know, we saw that in Rhode Island, they opened T.J. Maxx and all the scented candles went flying off the shelves.
Host: Right. (laughing)
Jennifer: You know, all the women running around here were just dying for more scented candles, I guess. (laughing) I’m one of them to be fair.
Host: Okay. (laughing)
Jennifer: But they are just flying off the shelves and again, this indulgent behavior and I think that’s okay. And I said to people like if you’re going to go back into the world, choose what you want to do. For example, living in Rhode Island, we have some beautiful, beautiful beaches. However, they are completely overfilled right now. So as much as I would love to be lying on the beach I'm not because I'm choosing to not engage in that behavior. Some people are and that’s what they feel okay with. And I think it's about choosing the things you’re okay with. Indoor dining just reopened where I am. Outdoor dining has been opened for about a month.
Jennifer: And some people feel way safer just sticking to outdoor dining. You know, it's summertime here, it’s 80 (degrees) something today. So people feel more comfortable engaging in outdoor dining, some people feel comfortable with indoor dining. And I think some of it is doing what you feel comfortable with. Your state, your country or county can be reopening at its own speed, within that speed you get to choose your speed. So if it means going and buying patio furniture and then sitting on your back deck for the summer, then do it. Just choose what feels good for you.
Host: As a therapist, you're probably very conscious about your answers to your patients and very diplomatic and now you're not talking to a patient or you don’t have to be diplomatic. What would you really say to people post-pandemic when the world is opening up? What would you really…What kind of real advice would you give people in managing their anxiety, their stress, or any anxiousness they have or anything that's going on through their heads? What would you say to console them or motivate them or, you know, caution them on certain behavior without any filters? No diplomacy is necessary.
Jennifer: (laughing) Okay, so if I’m speaking to a friend and not a patient I would say, one, don't be stupid because I don't want to catch it from you. So please do me a favor and don't spread it.
Jennifer: And I, you know, I think the thing about the pandemic that has blown my mind is that hand sanitizer and toilet paper flew off the shelves. What were people doing before? I think that was my question. Like, why did you suddenly need all that? Were you not washing your hands and using toilet paper prior to that?
Jennifer: So I think it’s that kind of behavior where I have some questions. But I think when it comes to anxiety, the things I tell my friends, “Listen, if you’re going to adjunct me for 100 days you’ll feel anxious”. In order to stop feeling anxious, you need to dip your toe in the water. We need to desensitize ourselves. The virus is huge here. So unless you plan on completely staying home. If you’re in the world you need to start doing it and do it in ways that you are most comfortable that doesn't necessarily mean, “I'm not going to a party of a hundred people anytime soon”. But am I going to go to a restaurant? Yes. And I’m going to wash my hands and I’m going to wear a mask and I’m going to, you know, pray to God that I don't contract or spread anything. But you will need to desensitize ourselves. I think that's a huge part of anxiety is you need to start doing the things that you’re afraid of. Otherwise, you're going to continue to be afraid of them.
Host: Okay, so we need desensitize. That’s a great ending though. Desensitize ourselves and start doing the things that we are afraid of. And fear, like we talked about before, is present in almost everyone's mind in a small portion or in a very large portion especially as we open up at this time. And for example, if someone is afraid to go back to work. For example, a teacher or, you know, if restaurants are opening up. How would you console them? What would you say to them?
Jennifer: I’d say, decide if it's for you. If this means you need a job change, maybe you need a job change. But if your work is telling you that you need to come back, you can advocate for yourself and say, “Okay. I’m willing to come back, but I'm not willing to be part of a staff meeting that has more than X number of people present” or “I’m willing to come back, but I would like to come back part-time so that I can be in the office when it's less busy. Your work can’t say no, your employer can’t say now but you certainly can advocate yourself and try to dip your toe in the water that, you know, in the water in a way that makes you more comfortable. But at the end of the day, at some point, the world has to resume function and that may mean that you have to do things that make you uncomfortable. So you can advocate for yourself but at the end of the day, you need to start to desensitize yourself to it and get back into the world as uncomfortable as that may make us.
Host: We didn't even touch upon the center of your work, which is with the criminal justice system.
Host: And I was watching John Oliver on Sunday and he had a piece about, you know, prisons and jails and about the spread of the virus there, and what people are experiencing there, the rights of prisoners and people in jail. And it seemed like a very dire situation. I hope you are safe and I bet you're very busy dealing with that part of your life right now.
Jennifer: Yes. I mean we’re seeing anytime a congregate settings, you know, nursing homes or correctional facilities. We’re seeing increased rates because keeping people six feet apart is almost impossible. So, yes, it’s definitely its own issue right now.
Host: Okay. Jennifer, thank you so much for being on the Lifelong Wellness podcast. Your advice was golden. It was very, very important that we talked about this and I'm glad that we got the opportunity to talk to you about this and get some fantastic insight today on, you know, change, fear, anxiety and stress. Thank you so much for being on the show today.
Jennifer: Thanks, Wes, for having me. I really enjoyed it.
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